Another Facebook Day
Avi Retici -
American Christians lament the removal of prayer from schools and view separation of church and state as a setback to Christianity in our nation. But is it? Just think for a moment about how obnoxious we are when we are given the space to spout off our religiosity. Ghandi, for example, said that he liked Christ, but he didn't like Christians. Perhaps separation of church and state is the great mercy of God in His sovereignty to prevent Christianity from turning into a disgusting controlling thing in schools and government by immature "believers" who don't understand how to be like Christ, but who would have used religion to control people's lives. Perhaps separation of church and state is used by God to purify people's perception of Christianity by keeping them from experiencing it in its perverted form. Maybe a secular America is a healthy America as long as the Christians in America decide to remain lukewarm. Maybe what the devil meant for evil, God meant for good. It's a different way of looking at it. What are your thoughts?
August 11 at 10:48pm
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Salizar Forundara -
It's working well for America so far. Teenage pregnancy is through the roof. Abortion has become the new convenient birth control. Homosexuality is now main stream. The sanctity of marriage is a distant memory with the divorce epidemic plaguing us. Children are being raised in broken homes. Violent crime is on the rise. Pornography is a thriving economy unto itself. The idea of morality has become antiquated. Mental and emotional illness is abundant. Sounds like the grace of God and not being left to reap the consequences of our actions to me. ;) Meanwhile the institution that calls itself the church has forgotten the gospel and is on the slope to returning to Dark Age theology with a modern twist. Just sow your seed to the minister and receive your indulgence (I mean prosperity) despite being spiritually bankrupt. Maybe we should go back to the type of Separation of Church and State our nation had before 1947, the kind found in the Constitution. Congress cannot establish a mandatory national religion and they cannot stop you from choosing your own religion, that's it. For the record, I don't think mandatory prayer in schools is a good idea though I find it frightening when kids are getting kicked out of school for praying themselves. lol.
August 11 at 11:15pm
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Avi Retici -
Sounds like the perfect staging ground for genuine revival.
August 11 at 11:20pm
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Salizar Forundara -
More in need of a Reformation than a Revival at this point.
August 11 at 11:21pm
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Avi Retici -
Renewal is another good one. Any and all of those good R words will do.
August 12 at 7:22am · Edited
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Avi Retici -
@Salizar: A lot more can be said about the balance between religiosity on one end of the spectrum and the abyss of sinfulness on the other. Pharisees cannot repent because they think they are already righteous. While Jesus hung out with sinners and had compassion for them, He was very hostile toward the Pharisees. I think America is safer as a sinful nation than a Pharisaical one. The desperation that is growing from all the increasingly bad consequences positions us in a place where we will be able to call forth and receive an outpouring of a tremendous amount of mercy and glory. That is much better than being in a hard hearted place where we don't think we need any mercy.
August 11 at 11:41pm
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Salizar Forundara -
Whether sinner or pharisee the ultimate danger is not position on the spectrum but in hardness of heart and unwillingness to see a need to change. A sinner who sees no need of salvation and a pharisee who does not see his need of salvation are on equal footing from a practical stand point. Either one could also be equally shown their need for salvation and come to know Christ. I think it is error to glorify either extreme above the other because they both have their own unique trials and temptations. Though I am deeply concerned at how many people in the church today think they are saved because they were sold a watered-down gospel and never truly submitted their lives to the Lordship of Christ yet have been convinced that they are saved by their ministers.
August 11 at 11:49pm
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Jarmon Hicks -
Nicely stated.
August 12 at 6:00am via mobile
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Truly Sunshine Smith -
Many will say in that day, didn't we preach and prophesy in your name, and do all manner of works? And Jesus will say, depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you. To me, this is the single most scary verse in the entire bible. Talking about Jesus and being like Jesus are two very different things. Then I think about the scripture that says "He learned obedience from the things he suffered." Since Jesus committed no sins, he must have suffered because of his righteous acts alone. That to me shows a persecuted Jesus. And you will know me in the fellowship of our sufferings. So we truly know we are his when we suffer for being and doing right in God's sight. I think God's true church is infinitely more helped in an environment that is hostile to us. It causes us to be pressurized and purged from our sin because we are forced to be more reliant on our spiritual weaponry and armor, and on Him. If we are being persecuted because we are obnoxious and hypocritical, we are being disciplined to come to a higher level of obedience. But if we have a clean conscious before God and we suffer for our obedience, then we are comforted in our afflictions and we are convinced we belong to the Lord. My prayer is to know Jesus and not just about him. My prayer is never just to do that I think is right but to be in right standing with him. I never want to hear those words "I never knew you."
August 12 at 7:52am via mobile
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Truly Sunshine Smith -
Unless your righteousness SURPASSES that of the pharisees, you will in no way enter the kingdom. They had a form of godliness, but denied the power thereof.
August 12 at 8:02am via mobile
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Spider Romero -
I think we are on the verge of the last great awakening. I think all of us who are watching what is going on in our world are seeing the great responsibility of the Church to do the works Jesus did in a supernatural way. They won't know our talk but our power when we are operating in his kingdom authority. Government will not have to fix all the social ills of our society when we come up higher in our God given inheritance. As far as the prayer in school thing, I was not alive when that was going on so I really don't have any negative or positive comment on that. There were problems then even in the midst of a greater moral code. When I prayed about this a week ago I felt God was saying that he is making known who his true children are and who were not genuinely born again. Although I hate what I see happening in our culture, I choose to see the wonderful possibilities if we will only take our true role in the world seriously.
August 12 at 8:16am
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Gosling Winnebego -
I think the first amendment is great, as we have freedom of religion, and the state cannot enforce a religion upon us. However "separation of church and state" can agree with first amendment but sometimes it can conflict. Separation is a philosophy that is used at times to prevent anyone associated with the state from expressing any religious views whatsoever, which goes against the free exercise clause. Most of the time this doesn't affect policy, but it does affect people's opinions, such as professors being criticized for leading a bible study apart from the university, or Tim Tebow wearing scripture reference on his face while playing for a public university. Such actions may violate separation but do not, in my mind, go toward establishing a religion. As far as the state of things in this country, I am hesitant to believe more govt is the answer.
August 12 at 9:07am via mobile
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Avi Retici -
Here's a crude picture of our progression as I see it:
1. FDR and the New Deal kicked off the taking of responsibility of helping the poor away from the church and giving that responsibility to the state.
2. The church lost its ability to exercise that which keeps it strong, so it became lukewarm.
3. Separation of church and state removed the lukewarm church from having influence over government and schools.
4. Social decline is bringing the population into an increasing place of desperation.
5. This sets the stage for a genuine return to God and true revival.
We're in step 4 right now and step 5 has been conceived. If step 3 had not happened, we would be in a much more dangerous place. Imagine a version of "Christianity" that operates kind of like the way religion controls people in the Middle East. Everyone would have to be "righteous," or else! That is much worse than the immorality and social decline that will soon lead to genuine revival. It would have distanced man from God more than anything. So you see, things aren't always as they seem.
The signs of step 5 are starting to manifest, so we are in a time when there should be much rejoicing. But we need to make a push for this and sew seeds into the Spirit rather than promote self-righteous political agendas. When people's hearts change, government policies will change automatically, so there is no need to focus on all that political stuff. Unless you are clearly and specifically called to do so, don't spend your time fighting battles at step 3. Focus on bringing heaven to earth by being good to people instead. Keep your eyes on step 5.
August 14 at 3:48am
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Salizar Forundara -
So then until such a time as this great Revival, that you hope is coming soon, occurs then the righteous should remain silent while evil prevails and leave the course of our country to those who do not know God? Wouldn't it be a better idea to seek this revival with all our hearts while simultaneously not sticking our heads in the sand and eagerly yielding the world around us to Satan and national destruction. Perhaps the Revival might even come more quickly if we were to do things such as standing against the Gates of Hell, crying out for repentance and righteousness, loving those going to Hell enough to put up at least a token effort of helping them avoid it, and you know other types of godly stuff. The Church being silent and unconcerned with the world around us is sort of what led us to this point in the first place.
August 14 at 7:14am
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Truly Sunshine Smith -
I understand the political angst, I truly do. I have been doing some of my own "sounding of an alarm" on the political front myself and it's been very difficult to do it because I feel a lot of anger about the direction we are headed these days. When I got to the point where my comments and posts looked just like the others guys, I felt like the Lord challenged me to dig deeper. Why did my words seem like they were falling on deaf ears? No matter how convincing my arguments they seemed powerless. Then it was like a lightbulb went on: I don't think my anger is working God's righteousness here. I inquired of the Lord and he said that many who follow Obama share in his father loss issues and have pledged loyalty like gang members do when they have been forsaken by their families and left in poverty to fend for themselves under a leader who promises to take care of them, but who ultimately leads them into a wrong path that leads to their destruction. He further showed me the failures of the church to lead them to the Father and our lack of monetarily supporting the poor and needy.Prayers ensued of repentance for us as a church for the ways we have neglected portions of our mandate and a deep compassion was stirred for the fatherless of America. No wonder the founding Fathers' message seems antiquated and so far from their hearts! Then the Lord showed me that the church has not shown an accurate representation of the Father. Jesus said, if you have seen me, then you have seen the Father. I was humbled to realize America has not seen the Father because they haven't seen Jesus in me. Then the whole focus on how to reach them came squarely back to me and my own walk with the Lord. The battle became no longer a political one but a spiritual one. We have the same enemy as the fatherless. We are all on the same battlefield, but I have not been asking the Lord how to win their hearts in which their votes will follow. He said if I would fight the battle against the evil one in my own life that He wouldmake me a fisher of men sad anointed my words and acts with power, just like He did with Jesus. He said the time was over that my energy should be disapated by getting caught in battles that the enemy was trying to embroil me in but fight his battle for the hearts of men. In that fight, I will be prepared and indued with power from on high to carry out the ministry of reconciliation. But first, I must be reconciled and the church unified.
August 14 at 8:08am via mobile
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Truly Sunshine Smith -
If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves, seek my face and will turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and heal their land. In THIS we are powerful, and in THIS we have a sure promise!
August 14 at 8:13am via mobile
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Spider Romero -
Something came to me earlier this morning regarding the balance of Grace and truth. I saw a picture of a dinner entree that we present to a person. If there is no salt at all in the food it won't provide the necessary health that the body needs and will just be too bland to enjoy. However, if all we served at dinner was a large block of salt (like the one's that we give to horses) and tried to feed it to someone what kind of reaction would we expect to see. The whole thing about wisdom is knowing the sequence that is appropriate for each situation. When we see a flood of ungodliness hitting our country it is natural to try to counter attack it with as much truth as we can to bring things back to homeostasis, but too much salt at one time can cause a negative effect which has the potential to make things worse. Our country did not get in this mess overnight. It will take a lot of hard work and effort to get things in a better state, but lets be mindful of the sequence first. Give grace and goodness and then give truth to preserve the proper balance. Jesus knows that he has more truth for us to know than we can bare at one time. He will lead us and others into all truth as we listen to him.
August 14 at 11:51am
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Truly Sunshine Smith -
Vince, I like that analogy. another 1 was coming to me. imagine being in a dark room for very very long time with no light. A well meaning person might decide to come in and turn on all the lights at once, but it could be very damaging to the eyes of the person who had been in the dark too long. the best way to introduce light would be from 1 small single flame like that of a candle. as their eyes adjusted, they couldn't handle more more light as it entered the room. I think that is a good way I've seen how we can bring light to people who are in the darkness. And the lamp of that flame is the love in our hearts.
August 14 at 12:14pm via mobile
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Avi Retici -
@Salizar: What did Jesus do? What did Paul do? Did they fight political battles, or did they fight spiritual ones? What did Paul say in Ephesians 6 about our battle not being against flesh and blood? :)
Yes, we should vote our conscience and participate in the process and share social wisdom where applicable. But on a day to day basis, for what cause are we applying our energies? Christ and Him crucified, or the ideology of political conservatism?
August 14 at 7:30pm
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Salizar Forundara -
Did Jesus live in a Democratic Republic? Did Paul live in a Democratic Republic? No they lived in a dictatorship where the people had no say. The spiritual battle must be our first and most important priority but in a Democratic Republic, if you neglect the natural process of government involvement then you have already lost the battle. Will government fix the problem caused by a powerless ineffectual church who has abandoned the truth and responsibility? Of course not, but if Christians remain silent they will find themselves silenced by the very government they ignore. And to bring your Paul quote into its proper context the battlefield for souls is not a physical war but a war for souls in the battlefield of the mind. If the church doesn't use its voice then the only voice the lost will here is that of the world.
August 14 at 8:13pm via mobile
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Salizar Forundara -
And the question you ask is a bifurcation fallacy. There is no reason for an either/or. If one is wise I would suggest the answer would be both. Take care of the Spiritual matters above all but do not neglect the natural responsibilities you have either.
August 14 at 8:21pm
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Truly Sunshine Smith -
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to God what is God's. I agree we must ask God to help us discern our battles. We must conserve our energies for the battles God is calling us to fight. Those are the only ones we can and must win.
August 14 at 9:45pm via mobile
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Avi Retici -
@Salizar: What I don't think you are seeing in my postings is that I am making a call for balance. In your last posting, for some reason you think I am telling you to neglect your political responsibilities, when in my last posting prior to that, clearly I am not saying this. Your response was rather surprising. If I am making a bifurcation fallacy here, it is only because that is how you wish to read it.
As for balance, I don't see much of it. I do see a lot of devotion and energy applied toward hating everything that liberals say and do. I never see prayers spoken or written to bless their families and for them to experience the love of God and spiritual fulfillment. I would think that should make up the majority of our words. If I dared to venture making a judgement about people's hearts (which is usually a dangerous thing to do), I don't believe that the great majority of politically outspoken Christians have a genuine love for liberal people.
That takes me back to lukewarm Christianity and the preservation of our society by keeping Christians from having their way until genuine R words happen. God is a lot smarter than ruffled Christians.
It is somewhat tragic that you don't see eye to eye with me about this.
August 15 at 5:09am
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Avi Retici -
I really love you Salizar to see good things for you. Bless you!
August 15 at 6:16am
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Salizar Forundara -
The reason I said it is a bifurcation fallacy or an either/or fallacy and I somehow missed that you are making a call for balance is because you keep phrasing this in an "either/or" light rather than a balanced "and" light. You say things like "we need to make a push for this and sew seeds into the Spirit RATHER than promote self-righteous political agendas." " there is no need to focus on all that political stuff." "for what cause are we applying our energies? Christ and Him crucified, OR the ideology of political conservatism?" To list just a few examples. Terms like "Rather" and "or" force one to make a choice of one or the other. Every one of my posts have been simply a call to balance and saying that it would be foolish not to do both or "and". I have said that the spiritual needs to be our main priority and receive more of our energy but if you neglect the other by falsely assuming that you have to choose one or the other then you are doomed to failure. In addition to the fact that your words themselves repeatedly insist that one must choose between the two the fact that every time I mention that one should do both which by very definition would be "balance" you argue against it. I also think that it is tragic that we don't see eye to eye on this.
August 15 at 9:47am
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Avi Retici -
@Salizar: I really did expect that to be your response because it is easy to misunderstand the point I was driving at by the words I chose to use if you are coming at it from that angle. My one-sided statements were indeed part of the balance that I was talking about. When we see something out of balance, many of us make extreme statements like that to serve as a counter-balance. As I'm sure you can appreciate, that's why the Bible seems to contradict itself sometimes. The authors are making one-sided statements as a counter-balance to other areas of the Bible where other one-sided statements serve as an opposing counter-balance. It's all about context. I'm doing the same thing here.
Even though we both "believe in balance," I suppose I lean toward being apolitical while you lean toward being political. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. All things considered, I don't see the need to quarrel with you about it. After all, not quarreling about such things is the crux of my point about all this.
One final question though. Why doesn't it disturb you that the simplicity of the gospel of Christ is being obscured and made complicated by all the additional layers that are added when connecting it to American politics? Many people think that an invitation to Christianity also means that they must become a right wing conservative republican. That doesn't bother you? I just want to know if that bothers you, and if it does, what your solution is. Because a problem like that really needs a solution.
August 15 at 10:00pm
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Salizar Forundara -
I think the problem with the gospel in America is that by and large it isn't being preached at all. There is a lot of false gospel and half gospel but very very little real gospel. As someone who is very active in political circles I also see the political issues and religious issues being handled separately and distinctly in the mass majority of cases. The only religiously charged issues right now center around forced acceptance of homosexuality and the government forcing churches to fund things that they consider to be sins and thereby violating their conscience. And religious people did not start these arguments they are simply defending the rights that the government is trying to take away. Do most Christians line up on a more conservative stance? Of course, because of the values and morals held by people who love God. If there are two options to choose from and one side is waging a war against your faith, supports gross immorality that oppose the moral teachings of your faith, devalues the value of human life, in addition to all of the other stances they hold which have a devastating impact on your livelihood and ability to thrive and survive then you would obviously choose the other option which holds values that at least come closer to lining up with your values. The majority of the strong emotions in the political arena at the moment, however, have very little, if anything, to do with religion but everything to do with whether we seek to remain a Constitutional nation that embraces freedom and on the economic survival of our nation. So does it bother me that most Christians would choose to honor the sanctity of life, freedom to worship their God, Individual liberty embracing the freedoms given by God, and moral uprightness? Not at all, rather I would be deeply disturbed if they didn't.
August 15 at 10:25pm
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Avi Retici -
@Salizar: Yes, I agree with you about the social problems that we face. You and I have no quarrel there. But you're missing my point. What I'm saying is that Christians are dealing with it wrong. Despite what you said about "political issues and religious issues being handled separately and distinctly in the mass majority of cases," the way Christians handle politics is in fact causing the wrong impression about who we actually are in Christ.
Here's Anne Rice on why she decided not to remain a Christian after all:
"I quit being a Christian. I'm out. In the name of Christ, I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of ... Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen."
http://blog.beliefnet.com/deaconsbench/2010/07/anne-rice-i-quit-being-a-christian.html
This is very unfortunate, as she had such a beautiful and powerful conversion story:
http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/anne-rice-atheist-christ/
Thank God she continues to remain devoted in her relationship with Christ Himself, but clearly the politics of Christianity are a huge huge stumbling block to her, her followers, and everyone who comes from that persuasion. When people hear the word "Christian," they are associating it with a bunch of political issues, not a wonderful relationship with our Trinity. I did a quick Google search on this and found that the misperception is not limited to Anne Rice.
So my question remains, how many beautiful and powerful conversion stories have to be snuffed out in the name of conservative Republican politics?
Your response to me was that this is not a problem. But it really is.
August 16 at 7:04am
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Avi Retici -
In case you are wondering, this is what I think Christians should do:
1. Tally up all of the hours that you spend reading and watching the news, thinking about political arguments, and debating people in forums and in person about political issues.
2. Replace those hours with prayer in your hidden place with God, crying out for healing for the nation.
3. Add fasting to your prayers.
4. If the wind of the Holy Sprit blows upon you to take action, obey His voice.
If Christians do not do the above, it means that either:
1. They don't believe that their prayers are more powerful than their arguments, or
2. They don't care about their nation enough to spend that time in prayer.
Any questions?
August 16 at 7:31am
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Salizar Forundara -
I have followed Anne Rice for years both before and after her "conversion". Based on her own words spoken in many places, her problem, and most of those like her, is more likely that she has never submitted to the true gospel message. I am not God and do not claim to know what is going on in anyone's soul, but if we use the premise Jesus set out about knowing who are His and who are not, by their fruit, it appears that while she accepted some parts of the gospel message she never truly submitted to the Lordship of Christ. I also believe the church at large is handling the issue of politics wrong but in the exact opposite way. I believe the problem is that the church has naively remained silent for far too long and attempted to compromise over and over so as not to offend people. The type of Government we live in is a unique venture which requires participation in many ways. If one side is silent then the other side not only wins elections but they win the battle over peoples minds. The church has embraced humanistic thinking and moral relativism and therein lost it's power because the power of the Church lays in the gospel and in the Truth. When Jesus delivered the gospel and told people to way the cost, because it would require them to surrender everything, many many people walked away unable to accept it. Unlike the church today He didn't ever water down or compromise to get more people in His following.
August 16 at 7:36am
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Avi Retici -
@Salizar: I see what you're saying, and I don't think you're entirely wrong, but I still think there are different ways to look at it that have tremendous merit. Consider Vince and Melissa's most recent responses. I think the pictures that they were getting were from the Lord and were spot on!
I also think that we may be taking different approaches at even how we are looking at this issue when we try to describe it. Your last response is talking about how the Church as a whole is responding to the issues (like a bird's eye view), while my main concern and focus is on how we as Christian individuals should be approaching the issue (like under a microscope). Take my most recent posting for instance, which you didn't have a chance to see before posting your most recent response. The solution, from my point of view, is devotion to prayer and hearing and obeying the voice of God instead of firing up the ol' think tank and churning out political arguments. I think, when we take a more spiritual approach to fighting our battles, we will find that the political arguments will still be made, but with much more potency, and perhaps less often.
So we're kind of in alignment with each other Salizar. We're almost there. :)
August 16 at 7:54am · Edited
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Salizar Forundara -
If one is a Christian, they should already be spending time in the presence of God worshipping and studying. They should already be praying regularly for our nation and divine direction. That should be a given as part of being a christian. Again the difference its that I am saying do both not either/or. Render unto Caesar what is Caesers and unto God what is Gods. Be faithful in both your spiritual and your civic responsibilities. You are first and foremost a citizen of Heaven so it its always the top priority and receives the most diligence.Most Christians today, however, are faithful in neither, a few are faithful in one or the other, but rare is the christian who is faithful in both. We are called to be faithful in all areas of life in all our responsibilities.
August 16 at 8:27am via mobile
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Avi Retici -
@Salizar: Here's a rather long one to make up for not responding yesterday evening. I hope this further increases my resolution and clarity about this issue.
What you said is completely true and makes my point when you said, "most Christians today, however, are faithful in neither, a few are faithful in one or the other, but rare is the christian who is faithful in both."
Let me create some fictional numbers to help illustrate what you just said. If you're one to complain about numbers, don't! This is very simple. :)
Random sample of 1,000 Christians:
Total Christians: 1,000
Faithful in Neither: 900 ("most")
Faithful in Spirit: 49 ("few")
Faithful in Politics: 49 ("few")
Faithful in Both: 2 ("rare")
Here's a very simple analysis of the list above. Keep in mind, this is based on your own representation of the demographics. In the list of Christians above, how many are faithful in politics? 49 + 2 = 51 total. The 2 who are doing politics in the Spirit are completely overwhelmed by the 49 who are doing politics in the flesh. (The actual numbers may even be much worse than this.) There is no spiritual sobriety among the 49, no fasting and praying, no defense. Demonic spirits in the political realms are having a field day every time these 49 open their mouths. I would strongly urge this group of 49 to join the 900 and do nothing. Or better: join the other 49 who are faithful in Spirit as a good starting point.
There is a horse and there is a carriage. The horse needs to come before the carriage. Christians throughout America need to be lit on fire with the fire of the Holy Spirit first, then they should do whatever politics that He leads them into as He leads them. That is the proper order in which those two things should happen. It should not happen out of that order.
So, in summary, here is a line-up of how I would judge what Christians are doing:
Faithful in Both: Excellent
Only Faithful in Spirit: Good
Only Faithful in Politics: Absolutely Terrible
Faithful in Neither: Sad, but not absolutely terrible
Having written that out, I am once again seeing from a fresh perspective that the ideal path for a political Christian is for them to become a "neither" Christian first:
1. The Political Christian should drop the politics and become a Neither Christian
2. The Neither Christian should then focus completely on their relationship with God to become a Spirit Christian
3. The Spirit Christian can then be in a position to hear from God about how to do whatever politics He is wanting them to do
I would leave #3 up in the air because I also believe that God calls different people to do very different things, even have "wrong" political points of view in order to have open doors and access to influence different groups of people. God's kingdom is MUCH larger than American politics. I mean, quadrillions of orders of magnitude larger. When I get to heaven, I won't even know what "republican" means anymore. I will laugh with you and say that it is a funny sounding word.
August 17 at 8:39am
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Salizar Forundara -
I see the point you keep making, I just think it is 100% wrong and the same type of thinking that has gotten us where we are in the first place. We can agree on this point, as we have all along, that the Church needs to get right with God. It needs to fall passionately in love with Jesus again, repent of it's wickedness and unfaithfulness, stop preaching a false or watered down gospel, stop being silent as the gates of Hell consume the world around it, quit trying to dethrone God and elevate humans above their Lord. Other than that we will just have to disagree. I still say we are called to be faithful in every arena of life God puts us in, and by putting us in a Democratic Republic that means being faithful as a citizen. Imagine if we applied your logic to every area of life that we are called to be faithful in. Don't go to work until you are where you need to be spiritually because you might make God look bad. Don't be a good Husband until you are where you need to be spiritually. Don't try and help the less fortunate until you are where you need to be spiritually. And on and on and on. We are called to be the light of the world and even if that light is currently very dim it is still more than the darkness surrounding it, God help us if Christians follow your advice and hide that little bit of light under a bucket untill it becomes a stronger light, leaving the world alone in that darkness. When the time came that we removed the bucket and shined out our light we find nothing but devastation and the burning corpses of those whom our meager light may have saved.
August 17 at 9:31am
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Avi Retici @Salizar: The examples you brought up are a cart of apples where political activism is an orange. (Or a lemon, to serve my point better.) I'll address each of your examples to explain why they do not apply the same way and only serve to confuse the issue.
If you are in a job situation where your presence is making God look bad, it is most definitely ideal for God to move you into another line of work. But, here's the real difference between work and political activism as it applies to our discussion. In most industries, work, by itself, is not inherently an impartation based activity. All personal interaction between coworkers is incidental and does not embody the actual purpose of work. If a lukewarm Christian defames the name of Christ while at work, that is an incidental misfortune, but not a direct result of the work itself. Political activism, on the other hand, is completely based upon the impartation of a person's influence by its very definition. People with very different political persuasions and belief systems can work side by side for years, and can even be close friends, without even knowing much about what each other believes. But as soon as they open their mouths about their differences, for political reasons or otherwise, look out! To put it simply, lukewarm Christians should keep their mouths shut and not be influential. (Thereby becoming cold instead of lukewarm.) They can do that at work because most lines of work are very conducive to just getting stuff done without any need for them to impart their influence. This is impossible with political activism because the very purpose of political activism is for them to open their mouth and impart their influence.
If you are a bad husband, discontinuing the marriage is not an option. (While not being a political activist is always an option.) Most importantly, becoming a good husband is actually a step toward healthier spirituality, while becoming a better think tank to generate more persuasive political arguments does not take you a step toward healthier spirituality. My horse and carriage analogy comes into play here. Becoming a better husband is part of the horse, while becoming a more effective political activist is part of a carriage. So, I think your husband example might be a non sequitur.
Helping the less fortunate is similar to the husband example. Helping the less fortunate is a very spiritual activity all by itself. If you are not spiritual enough to help the less fortunate, that is almost a catch-22. You become spiritual enough to help the less fortunate the instant you have it in your heart to take action to help the less fortunate. The same cannot be said about entering emotionally charged internet forums and blasting liberals with highly persuasive political arguments. All I see from those actions is the production of more anger and hatred. I cannot even think of an example where someone helping those in need has ever produced anger or hatred. (Unusual situations or hypothetical examples notwithstanding.)
Your last example was "and on and on and on." I would need to evaluate those on a case by case basis in order to determine if they serve to make your point.
So yes, we can agree to disagree for now. I bless you for your genuine and thoughtful attempts at helping me see what you believe to be right, but I hope you will reflect on this more for yourself and reconsider what you think about this someday.
Saturday at 3:43am · Edited
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Truly Sunshine Smith -
I think the political spectrum is a very accurate example of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Imagine a numbered graph: on one side are negative numbers (liberalism) on the other side are positive numbers (conservatism). In the center is zero. On the negative side there are ways of thinking and being that possibly put our freedoms in peril and our nation in bondage, on the positive side are ways thinking that are more in line with God's principles and bring us fewer negative consequences as a nation. But both sides are still coming from the same tree. We as Christians are delivered from outright sin ( negative numbers) and self righteousness (positive numbers). We enter that gate by chosing to be at zero. We escape the errors of both sides because we chose to be empty of both. Since we have been delivered from this tree, we no longer do what is wise in our own eyes but seek God's wisdom instead. We cannot overcome this tree on our own but now www eat from the tree of life as zeros on the political spectrum. We are freed from the lusts of carnal man and we are free to follow Godly principles out of a heart turned to God...a true righteousness. Why would we give all that up to eat from the old tree when we now have the tree of life? At least we can agree that the political fight is a lesser one than staying at zero in Christ.
Saturday at 8:07am via mobile
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Truly Sunshine Smith -
I have enjoyed seeing a true life example of iron sharpening iron. As long as we maintain the unity of the spirit, we are free to explore our own hearts and minds and allow the spirit to teach and train us in His ways.
Saturday at 8:13am via mobile
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Salizar Forundara -
You have again completely missed my point, which was that we are supposed to be faithful in every arena God puts us in rather than cherry picking when to be faithful and when to be unfaithful. But yes, we can agree to disagree for now. I bless you for your genuine and thoughtful attempts at helping me see what you believe to be right, but I hope you will reflect on this more for yourself and reconsider what you think about this someday.
Saturday at 8:59am
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Wandanika Chipotle
My favorite post of year! I don't believe God wants us to legislate our morality. He say here is my way, walk in it and does not force us. Why would we force others?
Saturday at 9:23am via mobile
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Avi Retici -
Wow, Wandanika! When you said, "I don't believe God wants us to legislate our morality," that is something that I have not said in this discussion, but those are EXACT words that keep coming to me for quite a while now.
Saturday at 5:38pm
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Wandanika Chipotle -
My beliefs which I feel I know are closely aligned with Gods heart are in almost total contrast to mainstream Christian political dogma. It was happily shocking to see your post! You are my new best friend. :-)
Saturday at 5:47pm
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Avi Retici -
@Salizar: I thought about this some more and I honestly don't think that I missed your point. Faithfulness in politics (and religion for that matter) also means this: do not open your mouth if doing so makes matters worse. Your other examples of where we need to be faithful in life do not have that caveat. That is why your examples didn't work to make your point. I got too detailed when trying to explain that about your examples, so it was easy for you to think that I missed your point. But you can read my response again in that light if you want.
You may still not agree with me. That may take time. But at the very least, you ought to know that I didn't miss your point.
Sunday at 8:04pm
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Salizar Forundara -
It's not a matter of needing more time. I think that your thinking on the matter is fundamentally wrong and in all honesty naively deluded and dangerous. If you were to take a less extremely reactionary stance, and address that you believe that the way Christians express themselves in the political arena needs changing then I could respect your opinion and there would be grounds for rational mature dialogue, but to suggest the extreme stance of absolute withdrawal that you are taking, I see as an absolute failure of faithfulness and responsibility both to your nation and more importantly God. That will not change.
Sunday at 8:33pm
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Juniper Jefferson -
I was going to comment on this but after reading all the comments I am exhausted...lol.
Sunday at 8:44pm
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Juniper Jefferson -
Actually I was just going to say that didnt the British and all the crusade wars, werent they all about control in the name of Christ. And now we know clearly that that it was a distorted religious venture that God wouldn't ever have condoned. So my first thought...yeah we definitely dont want morons controlling and in leadership under false and distorted doctrine and spreading it all around....OH WAIT THATS ALREADY HAPPENED...GOD I PRAY FOR MIRACULOUS MERCY ON OUR COUNTRY...HUMBLE US AGAIN AND SHOW YOUR GLORY THROUGH US...ok thats what I wanted to say...peace out.
Sunday at 8:48pm
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Avi Retici -
@Salizar: I thought I corrected that misunderstanding a few times already. I think Christians should indeed engage in politics. But only with care after they are explicitly led by His Spirit to do so and with His clear strategies. This will be evident by the presence of the fruits of the Spirit. (Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control.) I would say the same thing about evangelism. Exerting influence in human arenas without being led by the Holy Spirit is what is dangerous, not the other way around.
Sunday at 9:35pm · Edited
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Avi Retici -
Remember when I said this? "Faithful in Both: Excellent"
Anyway, on that point, it seems like this should be resolved now, unless you suggest that Christians should continue going out and fighting political battles without being led by His Spirit.
Sunday at 9:03pm · Edited
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Avi Retici -
@Salizar: I believe I've done my best to fully explain myself. I leave you in peace to consider these things.
Sunday at 9:09pm
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Pauly Hart -
this is one of the best posts i have read in years. i will make a some comments as i will not be joining in except for this one post...
first comment: as you may know, with the creation of my game i have been studying way too much history and would have to say that much of what i have been taught about the "wonderful religion of our founding fathers" has been bogus.
second comment: i am a "liberal" in the most definite terms of what john locke would have said and i think that the "liberals" of today are not liberals at all but espouse views similar to socialitic vampirism.
third comment: i obey the bible no matter what my role is with Jesus that day. if i have sinned, i repent. then i obey the bible. if i feel like shit, i obey the bible. if i feel like rose petals, i obey the bible. i don't have to be in a spiritually correct place to obey the bible. just obeying not worrying about how i "feeling" spiritually is immutable to me.
fourth comment: i do not own a television and there is no way to convince you how free i feel from the-artist-formerly-known-as-lucifer and his "programming" except to plead and beg with you to do as i have done... put it on the curb! choose NOT to be programmed.
fifth comment: give and it will be given unto you in whatever measure it will be measured back to you... so if you are sewing docterine you will reap docterine. i know all of you posters (except lee) well enough to tell you that you have seen me love to my own hurt. i do not regret choosing action over theology.
sixth comment: love God with everything and love your neighbor as you want to be loved and you can do no wrong. there is no law against love. some of the points that you guys are making are asinine. proove your valor and quit posting jibberish and so appologize to your wives. do the dishes. change the diaper.
seventh comment: if we used facebook one less hour per day and vaccuumed, cleaned and sang songs to our babies... would that make us more like Jesus?
about a minute ago
